User talk:Ekko/Expertise
Previous Discussion (Archive 1) So. This page is for talking about the math here. If you disagree with how I went about my math, this is where you let me know. This page is NOT for discussing Assassins or Rangers apart from their capacity for energy managment. [[User:Ekko|'Ekko']] Starr! 12:32, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :There is nothing else do discuss. --'Tiger' grrr!! 12:34, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::I disagree with how you went about your maths because you forgot to take into account dual attacks and the extra arrow of regeneration. - 12:35, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::1) The proof is for any weapon, which is why I did not include dual attacks. It's likely that I will make one specifically for daggers, and factor that in. Also, as an attack skill is being spammed, the only way that a double strike can happen is with a dual attack like Death Blossom, and that removes the universality of the proof. :::2) The extra arrow of regeneration could be added, but it would be a little shaky: it would depend on the amount of time taken to spam the skill, and that's left undefined. This would be more easily added on one for a specific weapon. [[User:Ekko|'Ekko']] Starr! 12:56, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::::Then I reject your proof because the initial premise is flawed. It is stupid to make a comparison of rangers vs sins for any weapon other than daggers. No on has ever suggested that assassins might be better with bows, scythes have other factors to considers, thumpers are better than hammersins and swords and axes are dumb on both. - 13:39, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::::I'm saying that Rangers have better energy managemtn than a Assassin do. I'm not saying that "rangers are better than sins" exept with energy. The weapon is left generic because it's not what's being compared. [[User:Ekko|'Ekko']] Starr! 18:19, 10 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::however, your entire argument rests on the premise that EVERY attack will be a skill. in reality, there is no single build in existence which meets that criteria. it also rests on the premise of generic weapons, whereas, in reality, if the weapon is daggers then the sins will double strike and gain moar energy, and if the weapon is anything else they will be carrying WotM and get moar criticals and therefore more energy. so, yes, your math is sound, but your argument presupposes at least two conditions which never, in fact, exist.--Reason.decrystallized 15:51, 5 August 2008 (EDT) :::::::Heh, MS/DB Sins without IAS use an attack skill on every or just about every hit. There's also Dragon Slash and the such, but obviously Expertise won't matter there. The thing with Critical Strikes, however, is that you don't need to rely on Zealous weapons to regain energy, whereas Rangers usually do. I'm sure it's been mentioned on this page, but once you're out of energy, Critical Strikes will get that blue bar up faster than attacking with a Zealous Weapon. [[User:St. Michael|'ــмıкε']][[User_talk:St. Michael|'нaшк']] 15:59, 5 August 2008 (EDT) ::::::::yeah, but even if you powerspam it, DB is a double strike, so there's two chances to crit. and you almost always get in one, possibly double striking auto attack in between the two.--Reason.decrystallized 16:02, 5 August 2008 (EDT) Rangers do less domagez :( —''The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by'' Rawr. 12:57, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :Agreed. --'Tiger' grrr!! 12:59, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :SA sins run out of energy. — Skakid 13:03, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::So do rangers, the cost reduction isnt rly that much. Even with sins taking a little break for energy (it literally takes 5 secs to max) you'll be doing comparable damage at least. —''The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by'' Rawr. 13:06, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::5s is a lot of time. SA rangers don't run out of energy with Zealous, sins do (even with crit eye (which is an extra wasted skill slot, btw)). The tradeoff is a bit less damage. Also, Lightning Reflexes. — Skakid 13:10, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::::Assassins get Assa Remedy, so... Well blind is dead anyways, so forget that... ~~ 13:11, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::::Assassins dont run out of energy, it takes ~2 seconds of outoattacking to replenish it. --'Tiger' grrr!! 13:17, 9 June 2008 (EDT) Ups assuming lead-offhand-dual attack chain with 4 recharge 16 in dagger mastery = 34% chance of double strike, 38% chance of critical first/second attacks: 21.08% chance of double strike, no crit = 0 energy gain 12.92% chance of double strike, crit = 6 energy gain 40.92% chance of no double strike, no crit = 0 energy gain 25.08% chance of no double strike, crit = 3 energy gain .2108*0 + .1292*6 + .4092*0 + .2508*3 = 1.5276 average energy gain third attack: 38% chance of double strike, crit = 6 energy gain 62% chance of double strike, no crit = 0 energy gain .38*6 = 2.28 average energy gain energy gain over the entire chain, factoring in regen = 10.6552 rangers "gain" 3 per attack, so 9 over the entire chain, and 4 from regen, so 13 total. so rangers have better energy gain assuming you're only spamming skills. However, with IAS, you can fit in one attack between each attack chain, which adds on 1.5276 energy gain to the sin, resulting in 12.1828 energy gain per 4 second chain. ie, it's your choice whether you want freedom of secondary, ability to gain energy through auto attacking, and more damage or 0.8 more energy every 4 seconds. -- [[User:Ibreaktoilets|'Tab']] Moo 13:13, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :lol —''The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by'' Rawr. 13:16, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::It is your choice to have a million or not to have one. --'Tiger' grrr!! 13:19, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::You get pretty bored when you haven't had school for a month. -- [[User:Ibreaktoilets|'Tab']] Moo 13:19, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::Wrong. Using a lead/offhand attack will never double-strike. Using a dual attack will always double strike. [[User:Ekko|'Ekko']] Starr! 18:19, 10 June 2008 (EDT) :what sin IAS you gonna use? o rite — Skakid 13:20, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::Freedom of secondary? Wut? —''The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by'' Rawr. 13:20, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::k name one — Skakid 13:20, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::::Flurry, frenzy, flail etc etc etc. those are actually consta IAS instead of 1/3 —''The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by'' Rawr. 13:22, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::::k you blow up, k SA does shit damage. provide actual reasons please ^_^ — Skakid 13:22, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::If you want, just take 1.5 from the final energy per second for an un-IAS'd sin. -- [[User:Ibreaktoilets|'Tab']] Moo 13:23, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::Flurry takes from base, so SA isnt effected. Frenzy = lol learn to cancel, i thought you would of learned that by now? —''The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by'' Rawr. 13:28, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::::SA does do base damage. Frenzy on an assa=lolwut. ~~ 13:29, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::::No, its armor effected but not base. —''The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by'' Rawr. 13:30, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::::::Cancelling Frenzy is a must have skill. --'Tiger' grrr!! 13:32, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::::::Rangers are only really better for splits cuz they have loadsa block stances =\ —''The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by'' Rawr. 13:32, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::::::::SA sins do shitty damage tbh. SA rangers do even shittier damage. Don't take an SA ranger, QED. I may revise this in a split situation where people rely on blocks to survive, sometimes enchantments too, but I would recommend not being a girl and taking a manly weapon on the split. - 13:36, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::::::::Are you suggesting a bar full of block stances and what dagger atack, Repeating Strike yes? Not very effective I must say. --'Tiger' grrr!! 13:37, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::::::::::No, I was saying SA would be useful on the split. - 15:02, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::::::No rawr, it does affect SA. Go try it. — Skakid 15:04, 9 June 2008 (EDT) rangas have ranga melee on 70 al olwut?--'7h3' ‎[[User:The Noob Police|'n00b']] [[User talk:The Noob Police|'p0l1c3']]50x19px 5p34k5 ] 14:54, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :Assassins have 70AL lolwut? - 15:02, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::Rangers got that +30vs ele tho. ~~ 15:03, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::i was saying some1 with 10 more armor than a squishie shouldnt be runnin up to some1 wif the weakest weapons in the game--'7h3' ‎[[User:The Noob Police|'n00b']] [[User talk:The Noob Police|'p0l1c3']]50x19px 5p34k5 ] 18:10, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::::So... assassins shouldn't exist? Agreed. - 18:15, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::::No, frontliners shouldn't be wearing feathers for armor. XD -Mike 18:18, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::::pz out also dervishes — Skakid 18:21, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::::dervishes are better becuz they got much more, better devensive skills....--'7h3' ‎[[User:The Noob Police|'n00b']] [[User talk:The Noob Police|'p0l1c3']]50x19px 5p34k5 ] 18:42, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::But Sins wield two-handed weapons like Hammers and Scythes with one hand while running under IMS. That's almost as manly as D-Shot. -Mike 18:53, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::nothing is as manly as D-Shot... --'7h3' ‎[[User:The Noob Police|'n00b']] [[User talk:The Noob Police|'p0l1c3']]50x19px 5p34k5 ] 19:23, 9 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::::Scorpion Wire. --image:GoD Wario Sig.JPG*[[user talk:Guild of Deals|'Wah']] Wah!* 19:32, 9 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::::lol. just checked my standing in the most linked pages. #89 wewt --'7h3' ‎[[User:The Noob Police|'n00b']] [[User talk:The Noob Police|'p0l1c3']]50x19px 5p34k5 ] 19:58, 9 June 2008 (EDT) Can Anyone read? THIS IS NOT A RANGER vs. ASSASSIN DISCUSSION! [[User:Ekko|'Ekko']] Starr! 18:19, 10 June 2008 (EDT) :Comparing the primary attributes of two professions is pretty much comparing the two professions. Rangers might have better energy management in some cases (maybe Shattering Assault) but Critical Strike allows for less downtime once energy gets low. You'd have a hell of a time getting energy back up once it's down. You can barely compare the two because of the different mechanics. Plus, Critical Strikes isn't just for Energy Management, moar domage is nice too. -Mike 18:35, 10 June 2008 (EDT) ::I thought the whole point of this exercise of yours was to prove that Expertise > Crit Strikes and therefore R/A > A/any - [[User:Panic|'PANIC!']] sexiness! 18:41, 10 June 2008 (EDT) :::As in the second sentence on the page: A lot of the anti-Ranger-with-Daggers arguments focus on how Criticals are better than Expertise. - [[User:Panic|'PANIC!']] sexiness! 18:41, 10 June 2008 (EDT) ::::Nope, that's the inspiration for the exercise, but not the point. The point is to compare similar attributes that come across some dispute of which one to use (as in the case of the R/A). [[User:Ekko|'Ekko']] Starr! 20:40, 10 June 2008 (EDT) :::::And his proof was general for any weapon, so you could hypothetically use this to argue that spear rangers have better energy management than spear assassins. Yay. - 03:07, 11 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::Yup. But, spear rangers would be pointless, a lot of spear skills are adrenal. Spear sins, though...Vicious Attack + Way of the Master...?[[User:Ekko|'Ekko']] Starr! 07:53, 11 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::::...Spear Rangers are pointless? Have you seen HB before?-- The Assassin 07:57, 11 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::::We also have a plethora of spear rangers. That was a pretty stupid statement (not @Gates, @Ekko). --image:GoD Wario Sig.JPG*[[user talk:Guild of Deals|'Wah']] Wah!* 07:59, 11 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::::::spear sins are better and spear rangers suck. they are way too over used--'7h3' ‎[[User:The Noob Police|'n00b']] [[User talk:The Noob Police|'p0l1c3']]50x19px 5p34k5 ] 09:28, 11 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::::::lol you're bad —''The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by'' Rawr. 09:30, 11 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::::::::lolwut? an average of 5 ranger spear builds get WELL'ed a day--'7h3' ‎[[User:The Noob Police|'n00b']] [[User talk:The Noob Police|'p0l1c3']]50x19px 5p34k5 ] 09:32, 11 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::::::::(EC)no u. That was a perfectly wasted opportunity to make some sort of "citizens arrest" joke. - [[User:Panic|'PANIC!']] sexiness! 09:33, 11 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::::::::Err, go play HB sometime. Spear sins are ok there but HaO cappers are awesome =\. Not to mention R/Ps own in TA if you run petway. —''The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by'' Rawr. 09:36, 11 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::::::::::doesnt change the fact that they are over used and therefore must be easy to use--'7h3' ‎[[User:The Noob Police|'n00b']] [[User talk:The Noob Police|'p0l1c3']]50x19px 5p34k5 ] 09:48, 11 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::::::::::What about WoH monks? - [[User:Panic|'PANIC!']] sexiness! 09:49, 11 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::::::::::::Shock Axe, overused because it is easy to use. - 09:50, 11 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::::::::::::i lol'd —''The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by'' Rawr. 09:58, 11 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::::::::::::::To be fair, though, HaO and Enraged Spear are pretty fucking easy to use. - [[User:Panic|'PANIC!']] sexiness! 09:59, 11 June 2008 (EDT) :::::::::::::::::::To be fair, it's already been covered on this page that it's easier to use a warrior than an assassin. - 10:00, 11 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::::::::::::::::Yeah well all you ever have to do as a warrior is poke your skill buttons in order. Oh wait. - [[User:Panic|'PANIC!']] sexiness! 10:02, 11 June 2008 (EDT) Well see this: Small Example of an Assassin Spike Build Usage: * Do your chain as skill 1-2-3-4-5-6 * Run Small Example of an Eviscerate Bar Usage: * Use Eviscerate to cause DW * Do a small chain of Eviscerate->ex.->ex. * Use Frenzy as an IAS * Did I make my point yet? --image:GoD Wario Sig.JPG*[[user talk:Guild of Deals|'Wah']] Wah!* 10:05, 11 June 2008 (EDT) :just what was that?--'7h3' ‎[[User:The Noob Police|'n00b']] [[User talk:The Noob Police|'p0l1c3']]50x19px 5p34k5 ] 10:11, 11 June 2008 (EDT) ::Yeah, I don't think the point you were trying to make came across and that's pretty bad Eviscerate usage tbh. - 10:13, 11 June 2008 (EDT) :::Seriously. Didn't even mention bulls or shock/pspike/rend. - [[User:Panic|'PANIC!']] sexiness! 10:17, 11 June 2008 (EDT) Re:Spear Sins Once again, I've had one of my mindblank moments...and a migrane. I completely forgot about Beastmaster Spearangers, which are good. I was thinking more of a R/P with 12 expertise, 12 spear, firing attack skills under cover of Lightning Reflexes/Escape. And that would be bad as many strong spear skills are adrenal, and thus expertise doesn't help. That should clear up the inadvertent confusion. [[User:Ekko|'Ekko']] Starr! 17:43, 11 June 2008 (EDT) You Fail This whole page is a bunch of bullshit because the following quote can't happen. "The character will use an energy costing attack each time they attack for this proof." Life Guardian 21:04, 18 October 2008 (EDT) :Barrage ranger/assassin? Moebius/Death blossom? [[User:Ekko|'Ekko']] Starr! 16:22, 19 October 2008 (EDT) ::If barraging, sins have unlimited energy. I herd critting on 6 enemies was gud? On MS/DB you have to take into account that you double strike every other attack, guaranteed. Thus, moar energies. Life Guardian 19:33, 19 October 2008 (EDT) :::Just two easy examples. I heard only spending 2 energy to attack 6 enemies was gud too. Also, this is old, and I don't think I'm even endorsing this as true on my page... [[User:Ekko|'Ekko']] Starr! 22:09, 19 October 2008 (EDT) ::::Thing is, you could net -2 energy with ranger, or net +1 energy with sins (And that's Assuming only half are critical hits). If they all critical then you net +13 energy. With zealous sins will gain +19 energy, and rangers would net +4. Yeah, see the difference?--ツThe Gates Assassin 22:48, 19 October 2008 (EDT) :::::A Crit Barrager would have about a 50% chance to Crit, so assuming you hit at least two foes, you should have a net gain of energy. A Ranger with 13+ Expertise would have to hit to foes to pay off one use of Barrage. The problem with comparing attributes already so different in mechanics, though, is the different utilities the Primary attributes offer. Rangers get stances, Assassins can deal an extra 10 damage per Scythe attack on average (for example) but they don't have any viable IASes for PvP. [[User:St. Michael|'ــмıкε']][[User_talk:St. Michael|'нaшк']] 15:58, 20 October 2008 (EDT)